We must talk about our problems, we are in a state of flux.

[momebie]

I am so damn intrigued right now. cleolinda has a poll going here where she's trying to correlate instances of INFP-ness to instances of someone being an empath. She has links to a Myers-Briggs test and explanations of what an empath is and it's all very interesting. If you're so inclined, I urge you to be a sample case for her poll. But really, that's not what's got me thinking.

As someone who has a Psychology minor, and who has never known what she wanted to be when she grew up, I've taken a LOT of Myers-Briggs tests in my time. From the time I was a senior in high school to the time I graduated college I was pretty exclusively an INFJ (Introversion Intuition Feeling Judgment). When I took the Myers-Briggs test she linked to just now I came up as an ISFP (Introverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving). I am not going to argue with either of those results, really. They both sum me up quite well. My issue with them is that they would seem to be coming up backwards. Or rather, it seems like I should have been ISFP then and an INFJ now.

I don't think I posted about it, and I don't really bring it up unless I'm ruefully, self-deprecatingly trying to be funny about my weaknesses, but last year some time all of my friends (the boyfriend included) pretty much told me in the span of a week that they don't think I'm particularly empathetic. And I'll tell you right now, that fucking hurt. I have always, to my way of thinking, tried to understand what other people are going through. I may not change my behavior to CORRELATE with those mental processes concerning the feelings and situations of others, but I go through the exercise. So while I might rant about people needing to get over this or go along with that, it's not that I haven't tried to find their side of the story. It's mostly that I think their side of the story is hurting someone else who I don't like to see hurt and because of that I want them to be better. I am not immune to this either. I often wish I could be better for people and sometimes don't really know how, which is probably part of the disconnect in the way my friends see me and the way I see myself.

So yeah, I lack empathy apparently. But then, you maybe all knew that. It comes to mind that a lot of the characters I really, really like lack empathy. Vicious being the most notable in that regard, but it's a common thread. I find the heartless intriguing. I always assumed that it was because I was allowing myself to explore a different facet of (non)emotional being, but perhaps it's always been that I relate to these characters because I too lack this trait and I want to be able to explore those parts of myself without people calling me on being a lousy person. (Which isn't to say that lacking in empathy makes you a bad person. It's just that I feel we're just taught that being sensitive to others is a paramount skill for navigating the world around us, and if we don't have that skill we're somehow letting other people down.)

In taking that Myers-Briggs test THIS TIME I kept thinking about the questions and wondering how my friends would answer them for me. I didn't answer the way I think they would, I answered honestly for myself, but the thought was in the back of my mind. And then when I came up with the new answer I had to wonder how much that whole revelation has changed who I am fundamentally. Do I now behave differently because my friends saw that I was lacking something I thought I wasn't? Am I now trying to make up for my actions in the past and does that make either set of answers disingenuous? For the record, I think that we are works in progress, myself especially, so I am not surprised by the idea that our Myers-Briggs scores could change over time. I'm mostly pondering how other people's reactions shape who we become. (And there's a long rant about Others and existentialism that I'll keep to myself, since I'm sure you've heard it before.)

But anyway, my head is rolling all of that around right now and I don't have a conclusion for my thoughts, I just wanted to get them out. And I also wanted to sort of gauge how other people see me and see how those scores work for or against my own scores. Is it just that I cannot properly communicate who I am, or is it that who I am is not who I think I am. And if I am not who I think I am, then who am I and how do I untangle the two gestalts? So anyway, if you will indulge me by telling me what Type YOU think I am:

[Poll #1728823]

I know that some of you know me very well and some of you don't know me that well at all. That's par for life. Even if you feel you don't know me well enough to answer I'm still interested in seeing what you think. There's no right or wrong answer here, I'm just genuinely curious about the way in which other people see me. It's a question I spend a lot of time ruminating on, but can never really answer in any meaningful way since I can only know myself (or anything really) as myself and not as anyone else.

Comments

[lilithisbitter.livejournal.com]

Empathy is overrated. Too much empathy leads to codependence. And I speak that as an INTJ, the mastermind personality type.

[murphstheman.livejournal.com]

wow..I'm INFJ...pretty much nailed it...how'd that happen?

[soundandvision.livejournal.com]

Because you're very curious about how people perceive you (and worry/care about it) I'm positive it's INF but the P or S I'm in the air about. (Well, that and you're a writer, heh).

I read and write a lot about this so it's exciting to find other friends as interested as I am. I think we should all keep the dialogue opening, it's good to learn more about one another. :D

[brilligspoons.livejournal.com]

Apparently I'm ISTJ (the "inspector" personality type). I'm sort of flummoxed between this and the result of my empathy quotient test (14! WHAT!). Mostly I just don't know what any of it means. :\

[laetificat.livejournal.com]

I think the Myers-Briggs test is flawed because it only has sixteen types. There are over six billion people in this world; there *have* to be more ways to think than that.

[ninepointfivemm.livejournal.com]

Ugh, sorry, I filled out the poll first as me because I fail and have horrible reading comprehension.

I don't think that you lack empathy, so much as you lack sympathy. I think you do try to understand and see where people are coming from. This does not mean people are going to get a free pass when they're being douchewaffles about their situation. I honestly think people mix up empathy and sympathy all the time. I'm empathetic, but I'm not sympathetic by any means. I'm also not an empath.

I also don't think you're an F. The way you process information is very T.

[laetificat.livejournal.com]

... although I do have to say that the ENFP category is pretty much me to a T.

[matthewbowers.livejournal.com]

I can't possibly answer this, not having met you in person. Even talking with you on Skype isn't the same. If we'd been in the same room together for five minutes or more I could probably answer these, but online is so different than in person. Hell, people LIKE me online!

[piratesunk.livejournal.com]

Apparently, I'm an ISFJ and very introverted.

[tentaclecore]

You don't have to physically show empathy for others in order to have it >_>;; Just like you don't exactly have to be feeling anything in order to act like you give a shit.

I didn't know what to answer in regards to the V vs P. You kind of seem either-or in that regard to me. So on that option I just randomly picked something :\ (Information! For proper testing results!)



Every single time I've taken the MB Test I've gotten ISTP. Apparently I've not changed as a person since I was sixteen. THIS MIGHT BE A BAD THING, IDK.

[comedychick.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, I probably lack empathy for most people, too. I don't think it means you're a bad person, just that you're good in different ways.

[theemdash]

I think you hit the nail on the head: the way we were perceived is not always how we feel. And the very fact that we can sometimes be quiet and solitary people means that a lot of things can be going on in our heads that never gets expressed (or even it gets expressed poorly due to other circumstances).

I came out INFJ this time, nearly middle of the road on everything. I get a different reading on this thing nearly every time I take it because I'm always middle on the road of all of it. (There are honestly some days when I think it's a wonder I keep it together because some of my impulses are so in opposition to each other.)

Being a human is tough, yo.

[wintersjuly.livejournal.com]

i am totally an empath and while i don't hate it, it's really goddamn frustrating. i don't want to be one: i spend all my time minding other people's feelings, all the while internally wishing they'd mind mine and because i'm a fucking empath, i can't even ask them to because that might hurt them~

*GNASHES TEETH*

[tailoredshirt.livejournal.com]

I find the M-B test really fascinating. I took it a few years ago and got INTP, although I'm not entirely sure that describes me accurately anymore.

I think there is always a disconnect between how we see ourselves and how other people see us. It's funny though because I don't think one perspective is any more flawed than the other? I feel like I know myself very well, and that others' opinions of me are flawed because they don't understand me. But several years ago I had a very good friend that I thought I knew very well, maybe even better than he knew himself. He got engaged, and I knew he wouldn't go through with it, but I didn't tell him that, and then they did break up. (Not that that makes me right, but...I just knew. I felt like I could see his brain working. I've never felt I could say that about anyone since.) So maybe I have friends that think they know me better than I know myself, and maybe they see things I don't? That's such a scary thought, particularly to an introvert.

Er, I feel like this is not even a reply to your post, just a braindump of thoughts I had after reading it. Regarding the validity of the M-B test, I think they are also inherently flawed, and based on our perceptions (and in some cases, wishes) of who we are.

And oh crap, I just took your poll wrong, sorry. *retakes it*

[myras-girls.livejournal.com]

I definitely see you as an ISFP.

I am INTJ, which is actually slightly different than I came up on the most recent test I took, however through discussion with the facilitator he agreed sometimes we can be slightly different than the results show, especially if we're borderline between one type and another- like a point or two difference in our scoring one side to the other. It was really helpful that he had us do all these roleplaying exercises to really pinpoint what we are and how that plays out.

[blamebrampton.livejournal.com]

I think the Myers-Briggs test is rubbish, as it is forever telling me that I am a General type of person, and yet do I have any infantry? No I do not. If I were half as bossy as that test thinks I am, there would be at least a few hundred cavalry standing ready to obey my orders!

As for you, I think you seem clever and kind. Whatever that is in M-B terms, you're that.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

There are definitely pros and cons to every type. I can see how too much empathy would lead to codependence, but I don't think it does across the board.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Haha. Those dead psych type guys, they're pretty clever.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's most of the reason I made the post, hoping that other people would talk about their own experiences with the scale and how they're perceived. In looking at the Composer type, which is what the ISFP correlates to, the final sentence sort of sticks out: Composers tend to be emotionally well rounded and sympathetic toward others. I don't really see myself as either of those things. I'm pretty emotionally incompetent, and while it was a surprise to me that people don't see me as EMPATHETIC I wouldn't be surprised at all to find that people don't think I'm SYMPATHETIC, since I tend to view empathy as a reaction that can't be controlled a lot of the time, and sympathy to be an action that you can control and that I often don't exhibit regardless of my feelings.

The Counselor role though (INFJ), seems to fit me to a tee.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I just took an empathy quotient thing I found on the net and got a 38, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual score was lower than average on a day when I'm being less pensive about it all. And I honestly only think it means what we let it mean. Most people aren't aware of these scales, and in the long run they don't rule our lives any more than astrology does.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Well yes, there will always be outliers in any test that narrows the field down so much. Not everyone is going to fit into one of the correlating roles. However, the correlating role for INFJ, the Counselor, aligns quite well with how I see myself. And I can definitely see where you're a Champion.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Ha. You're not the only one. I didn't catch the poll version with your answers as yourself. What do you think about yourself? I'd probably go ENTJ.

I agree with that, actually. While I have always seen myself as empathetic, I haven't seen myself as sympathetic for a long time. I mentioned this above too, but I kind of see empathy has a reaction to situations and sympathy as an action that one can control more readily. So while I am often quietly reacting to the things happening around me, I'm not likely to look on straining situations with grace or give the causes of those situations much leeway.

Honestly, when I look at the questions here at the HuffPo (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judith-orloff-md/are-you-an-emotional-empa_b_697483.html), the only one I can't answer yes to is the one about overeating to cope with stress, but I think that's more about how I've never seen food as an emotional substitute and less about how certain situations make me feel. And while I'm not likely to OVER eat I have caught myself COMFORT eating, by which I mean that I won't eat any more than I usually do, but I'll pick foods that I ate growing up or that make me think of happy times.

As for T and F I sometimes vacillate in how I think I process information in those regards. It's like how Boy will tell me I'm not observant. It's not that I don't think I'm not observant, it's that I think I'm often observing things that other people don't find particularly important. So while if there was an accident I might not be able to tell you which car made the screw up, I would be able to tell you how the man to the left of the accident reacted in a pretty methodical way, because I was cataloging it for use in writing later. Really I think it depends on how I feel any given day, which is how most people probably are.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Do you see yourself as introverted? I find that sometimes on the internet we read each other as differently than maybe the other person intends. Because it's easy for me to be extroverted here where I've carved my own little niche to feel comfortable in, but in real life I still lock up and freak out about social situations.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Oh you. I'm sure people like you offline as well, just not always in the ways you're looking for them to. I do agree that knowing someone online is very different to knowing them in person. That's part of why I'm interested in the outcome of the poll. I am rather amused that there are three votes for extroversion because, as I mentioned above to Marie, it's easy for me to appear extroverted and game for anything here in this little corner of the internet that I've carved for myself. When it comes down to it in real life, though, I still get basket case nervous about social situations.

[piratesunk.livejournal.com]

I am exactly the same. I see myself as introverted but apparently, sometimes, I give a different image. I am so comfortable here and never want to go out into the world.

[matthewbowers.livejournal.com]

Haha, no, people just don't like me in person. In any way. :P

And yeah, based on what you've told me, I wouldn't think you were extroverted, but I wouldn't know how much of that is true and how much is your own perception of yourself. Also, just because you're basket case nervous doesn't necessarily mean others can see that. So yeah. Basically I have nothing useful to say!

[laetificat.livejournal.com]

I can see that for you, definitely.

I actually ended up talking a little bit to Oz about it this morning, and he says that he's taken it a number of times and comes down on the middle of the line quite a bit; sometimes he's one thing, and sometimes he's another. Maybe that's you; you're not just one thing.

And I could go on for ages

[soundandvision.livejournal.com]

Wow please excuse like my 80 sentence failures in my first comment, this is what I get when I write while half asleep. ;)

Actually being empathetic doesn't necessarily mean you're emotionally competent or in tune all the time. For example, I'm INFP and the highlight of this category is being in tune with everyone. However we're also very self-centered (not in a snob way but in that we don't always see outside our own little world and how life relates to us) and thus miss out on many cues. Empathy is being able to understand someone else's situation, to walk in their shoes. As a writer, you have that in spades. Because you're interested in the heartless, in those characters and writing those characters, makes me believe you have a great deal of empathy. Because you're trying to figure them out and that's what empathy is. You care strongly about your friendships (empathy) and are moved to help them (sympathy), I would say you are empathetic. The human condition interests you...that's empathy (for G-d's sakes woman you love existentialist poets!).

Many people have a hard time figuring out between being INFP/INFJ (me being one of them). Are you organized or adaptable? Do you like open ended plans or do you want everything signed sealed and delivered? Do you like theories and what-if's and looking into possibilities and what the future can hold? Or do you like concrete details like fact and what has happened has happened...prefer the trees for the forest? A good site that goes into super detail on the subject is: infjorinfp.com.

Also not showing your emotions is an INFP trait. I'm often pegged as an aloof bitch that's secretly judging everyone when really I'm one of the nicest most caring people you can meet. Sadly this front keeps the nice people away and the crazies get a straight pathway to me. Though nice people do tell me their life stories/secrets but then freak out and run away. That's more about being an Empath though.

I wouldn't look so much at those roles (counselor etc) as I would learning about what the those letters stand for in Jung psychology (as introverted doesn't mean an introvert and judging doesn't mean being judgmental). That's when you really start to see clearly where you fit. If you're going to look at the the types as a whole then visit personalitypage.com which has the best detail on each of the types, including the negative qualities which may help you decipher your type too.

[ninepointfivemm.livejournal.com]

I'm very close to ENFP, but I almost always get ENTP. I'm more likely to say "I think" than "I feel." While that's not really an indicator... It kind of is? I constantly analyze everything on earth. My creative process is very analytical. "What do people want out of entertainment?" "What's successful, and why is it successful?" OF course, most of the time, it just boils down to "People just like the things they like," but I do analyze it first. ;)

My dad's an ENTP and my mom's an ESFJ, so we're a family of extroverts. (Even the dog is an extrovert, man.)

Dealing with certain problems is hard, yo. I'd be shocked if most people can handle a lot of weird problems and situations with grace.

Only two of those on the HuffPo list apply to me, and the noise thing is specifically an ADD thing and not so much an empath thing. I really do feel for my friends, but I'm more likely to externalize it than internalize. It's a very actor-y thing, I think. (Again, I am never shocked when anyone believes I'm an ENFP, since I have the actor personality down to a tee.)

Whereas, on the other hand, I've been told I'm too observant. Heh. I'm too busy looking at the trees and not the forest.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's a bad thing at all! There are a lot of people who get different things each time, which could be seen as fickleness, but it's not. I think sometimes people are just more certain of themselves. Like, I can look at parts of me and think 'this is it', but I'm never certain about the whole.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Agreed. I don't think it means I'm a bad person. I do think that we're trained to think that that is a worthy trait. Or at least that I was. But lacking it does not necessarily mean that you are lacking in humanity. The thing that really hurt at the time was that I was being perceived so differently from the way I felt.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I think that I express myself poorly a lot of the time. It's not up to other people to decode it, either. I just don't realize that I'm doing it so badly unless, like in that instance, it's so blatantly pointed out to me that I am. It's something I'm trying to be more mindful of, but I can't really know if I am. You know?

Being a human is tough. This whole tree of knowledge shit is a raw deal. You never really know if you're over thinking things or being honest to yourself. Pfah.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Honestly, and this might be my lack of sympathy showing, I wouldn't worry about whether you might hurt them until your needs are taken care of first. I realize that as an empath you would be open to their confused feelings, but it seems more proactive than just letting them affect you all the time. From what I can tell empathy seems to be a reaction, and not one that we can make consciously. Of course, if we could make the decision consciously interpersonal communications might come easier.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Brain dumping is what this post is for! I'm really interested in how people think others perceive them. And I worry slightly that because I do worry about that I'm kind of crazy. BUT HEY, AT LEAST WE'RE ALL IN GOOD COMPANY. I get you though, about other people knowing you more than you know yourself being a scary thought. That's honestly what hit me so hard about the empathy thing. It's not that I value empathy over anything else, it's the thought that I might be reading myself wrong, which seems kind of ridiculous. But I do think that sometimes we repress knowledge of ourselves. Like, if your friend really felt like getting married was the thing he should do and he was repressing the part of himself that you knew would kick in eventually.

And dude, being an introvert can be scary in and of itself sometimes. I spend so much time in my fucking head. It's a wonder I'm not crazier than I am.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Ahaha. You know, I can actually really strongly identify with the notes in the Counselor role variant, but on the other hand I was just telling my friend at lunch that if I HAD actually gone through with the Psych major I'd probably end up making people kill themselves. What with my lack of sympathy and all. ;) But I will most certainly take clever and kind. ♥

How do you know the cavalry hasn't just gotten REALLY good at hiding behind trees!?

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I can definitely see the Mastermind role variant in you. Especially in the way you go about your career and solve problems. Ah, traits I wish I could learn. ♥

I almost wonder if this test is being given in a counseling situation with a proctor who knows the person, if they would make a call between a borderline result, regardless of which side the dot actually fell on. Of course, I'm now wondering if I wouldn't have somehow botched up the role playing exercises in order to appear like a better person than I am. Sometimes it's hard being a douche with an audience. ;)

[myras-girls.livejournal.com]

The facilitator of the class I attended allowed us to pick our own result based on what we felt fit us best if/when we were borderline. He printed out a detailed description of the two personality types and had us highlight what we felt applied to us and I highlighted ALL of INTJ.

So I'm looking back at my notes and I scored ISTJ/INTJ and related more to the INTJ. However, before the roleplaying exercises I scored ENFJ- just looking at the test data itself, and when I read the detailed description for ENFJ I didn't feel it described me very well at all.

[ninasafiri.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to the entry, strangely enough I am an empath according to those points. I find that most people aren't particularly empathetic but they like to communicate with more empathetic people when trying to sort out their feelings or make a decision of some kind. And in that way you may be empathetic (good advice, good listener) but you may dish it out with a side of tough love or reality which can make it seem like you don't understand where they are coming from just because you don't take their side :).

Not voting in the poll because I've only been your LJ friend for a couple of weeks and I don't think I know you nearly well enough to answer something like this :).

Last time I took a M-B test, I recall being INTJ and that was in high school. I wonder though, as a Pysch major, if I answer questions differently rather than actually being different. I tested as INFJ this time, which is actually the personality type of psychologists lol xD.